If you have too much debt, there are five options for eliminating debt. Here’s my short video explaining your debt management options:
I explain these five debt busting options in the video:
Personal budgeting: Make a budget, and pay off your debts on your own. (I’m not a big fan of budgeting, since it’s hard, so you can read my post on why budgeting is a bad idea, and what you can do to manage your money without budgeting).
Debt Consolidation Loan: A debt consolidation loan is a loan used to pay off multiple smaller debts. It allows you to combine multiple payments into one smaller monthly payment, generally at a lower interest rate and spread over a longer period of time. Of course debt consolidation doesn’t reduce your debt, unless you can pay more towards the principal each month.
Credit Counselling: A credit counsellor can negotiate repayment plan where you pay your debts in full, but at a reduced interest rate. This is called a “Debt Management Plan” and works well if you can repay your debts in full.
Debt Settlement: A debt settlement is an arrangement negotiated with a creditor where you pay a portion of the amount owing. If you owe $20,000, you could offer to pay $8,000 as a lump sum to settle the debt, or you could offer to make payments over time. If the debt is old, and if you have a lump sum of money, this may be a viable solution. However, if you have many debts, you must reach an agreement with each creditor, which may not be possible.
Consumer Proposal: A consumer proposal is a legally binding settlement between a debtor and a creditor. It typical involves the debtor making one monthly payment, on an agreed upon settlement amount, over a period of no more then 5 years. At the end of the proposal period the debtor is then released of any remaining balances, which may be left from their original amount of debt.
Bankruptcy: In an Ontario bankruptcy an individual surrenders certain assets to a trustee, in order to be absolved of their debts. They are then legally declared bankrupt and required to adhere to the duties of a bankrupt, in order to obtain an absolute discharge, at the end of their bankruptcy term.
Which option is right for you? Try our debt options calculator, or contact us for a no charge initial consultation to review your options.
I don’t have a desire to be the bearer of bad news, but as we proceed into 2012, I have bad news: Canadians are carrying record levels of debt. Whose fault is it that we have so much debt? The bank’s fault for lending us too much, or our fault for borrowing it? I answered that question on the radio a few weeks ago with a six minute rant, which you can watch here, where I concluded that we are all to blame:
Back to our record levels of debt: The average Canadian owes $153 for every $100 they earn.
Think about that.
If you have a job where you take home $30,000 per year, and if you are the average Canadian, you owe about $46,000. In fact, according to Statistics Canada, household debt per person in Canada is $46,100, which is 1% higher than it was three months ago, and 5% higher than it was a year ago.
Think about that.
If you are average, you are carrying 5% more debt today than you were carrying a year ago.
Did your pay go up 5% this year? Probably not. According to Statistics Canada, average hourly wages were up 2.4% in the last year, but that’s just the average. If you work through a union your wages were only up 1.5%, and if you are a temporary worker your wages only increased by 1.0%.
Perhaps the news isn’t all bad? Perhaps we have more debt because we borrowed to invest, and our investments went up in value, so even with higher debt we are actually better off?
Nope.
Household net worth per person fell 2.5% in the last three months. That’s a big drop. Even worse, in 2010, when we released our study on Joe Debtor: The Profile of the Average Bankrupt, the average bankrupt owed 2.2 times his annual income in debt. As of today, based on our own proprietary data, our debt is now 2.4 times our annual income.
Is there no good news? I suppose the fact that for the twelve months ended August 31, 2011 total personal insolvencies in Canada are down 9.7%, and personal bankruptcy filings are down 16.7%, is good news. However, the bankruptcy rate increased significantly in the past, peaking in 2009, so this year’s drop is just a drop to still very high levels. The unemployment rate in Canada has dropped since the peak in 2009, which is good news.
However, it’s no surprise that 2009 was both the peak in unemployment and bankruptcy filings in Canada, so those two statistics are related. The unemployment did rate did increase in November, so if that trend continues we could see higher bankruptcy rates in the future.
Here’s my point: We are carrying more debt than ever before, and debt is bad. If you want to know why, Ted Michalos and I discussed that on the radio as well (and this clip is under two minutes):
Debt reduces your cash flow each month, and if you are trying to pay interest on debt you don’t have money to save for your children’s education, or retirement, or anything else. If you have debt, your resolution for 2012 should be: get out of debt.
You can get out of debt by making a household budget and cutting expenses. If you have more debt than you can handle, credit counselling, a consumer proposal or even personal bankruptcy may be required. Try our debt options calculator to see which option may be right for you, but above all, make a plan and start today.
Debt problems do not go away on their own, so the sooner you start, the sooner you can be living debt free.
November 14 to 18 is Credit Education Week in Canada, and I must admit I have mixed feelings. I strongly agree that Canadians need more education about credit, and debt, so anything we can do to help educate Canadians is good. However, I also wonder who should educate Canadians about credit.
Credit Education Week, according to their website, is sponsored by many financial institutions, including Capital One (the Platinum Sponsor), and three of the big banks (RBC, TD, and BMO). Other sponsors include OLG (who operates our lotteries and casinos; I’m not sure what they have to do with credit), a large payday loan company, Credit Canada, and three bankruptcy firms.
There are what appear to be many good conferences to be held during the week. According to their schedule, there will be a Money Management and Budgeting Workshop Monday to Thursday at the Family Counselling and Support Services for Guelph offices. We have referred hundreds of people over the years to Family Counselling in Guelph for credit counselling. They are a great organization, and I’m glad they are involved.
I must admit, however, that I do get a bit of queasy feeling when I see big banks and credit card companies sponsoring Credit Education Week. Don’t banks and credit card companies want us to borrow? Yes, of course they do, that’s how they make their money, but I guess they would tell us that they want us to borrow responsibly, and that’s why they sponsor Credit Education Week.
I think my queasiness is really caused by the use of the word “Credit”. I don’t like that word. Credit is a positive word, like “giving someone credit for a job well done.”
I prefer the word “debt”, because that’s really what we are talking about. I think we should call it what it is: “Debt Education Week”, but I assume the banks would not want to sponsor something that negative.
I also worry that the advice might be somewhat one-sided. If you call us here at Hoyes Michalos and ask us to explain your options, we will explain all of your debt management options. We’ll talk to you about budgeting to cut your expenses to pay off your debt on your own. We’ll talk about debt consolidation loans, credit counselling, debt settlement, consumer proposals and bankruptcy. Do the banks that sponsor Credit Education Week want you to know about consumer proposals and bankruptcy? I doubt it. They would be much happier if you paid in full, or if you did a debt management plan.
Of course we only make money from you if you file a consumer proposal or bankruptcy, so why do we explain all of your options? Two reasons:
First, we want you to find the right solution, even if we don’t make any money from it. We’ve been in business since 1999, and a big portion of our work comes from satisfied people we have helped, so we know that by explaining all options we will continue to grow.
Second, it’s the law. We are licensed by the federal government, and Directive No. 6R3 requires us to “discuss the options available to debtor for resolving financial difficulties”, including “non-legislative debt settlement arrangements” which includes debt consolidation, credit counselling, debt settlements, and budgeting.
So, when you meet with us, we tell you everything, as I explained on the radio a few weeks ago:
So what’s my point? Am I against Credit Education Week?
No, I support Credit Education Week. But to answer the question “who should educate Canadians about debt?” the answer is NOT the banks, or bankruptcy trustees, or credit counsellors, because we all have our own biases. Credit counsellors make their money from debt management plans. Bankruptcy trustees make their money from consumer proposals and bankruptcies, so those are the options we will emphasize.
The answer, I believe, is that the best person to educate you, is you.
Do your own research. Go to some of the Credit Education Week sessions, but also do your own research. Read many points of view.
In an interview on CBC she tells the story of a young man, earning $21,000 per year, who got $15,000 in credit from a big bank. You can watch the interview on CBC. The only solution for this person was to, you guessed it, file a consumer proposal.
You won’t see Gail Vaz-Oxlade speaking at Credit Education Week, delivering her message of personal responsibility, and looking out for yourself.
Too bad, because looking out for ourselves is the best answer.
So here’s my challenge to you: assume this week is Debt Education Week, and make it your personal goal to learn as much as you can about the ways to deal with debt. Learn how banks make money, and research the role played by credit card companies, debt consultants, credit counsellors, and bankruptcy trustees. Review your debt options, and then decide what option is best for you.
We all know the problem with debt consultants. Some of them will charge you a big up front fee, and then do nothing. They tell you they will contact your creditors to work out a plan, but they don’t. I had a meeting today with a representative for a large bank and he told me quite simply that “we don’t make deals with debt consultants.” Sadly, people still use them, which is why here at Hoyes Michalos we’ve heard many debt consultant horror stories.
So why are unlicensed, for profit debt consultants allowed to run radio and television ads promising to reduce your debt, when more than 99 times out of a hundred they can’t? Why doesn’t the government stop them?
Great question. I was asked that question recently, and here’s my answer:
In summary: I don’t know why the government doesn’t do anything. If there is anyone from the government reading this and they can give me an answer, please do. Call me at 310-PLAN and let me know.
For everyone else, do your research. Read our real life debt consultant stories. Before you part with your hard earned money, be sure you meet with your debt consultant in person. Don’t just talk to them over the phone; meet with them face to face so you can get a full explanation of all of your options.
If they don’t explain all of your debt management options, you are not getting good advice. It’s as simple as that.
Over the last few weeks I’ve heard an increasing number of debt consultant horror stories. It started with my article a few weeks ago about The Problem with Debt Consultants, and since then the number of horror stories appear to be increasing. We even discussed it on the radio:
Here are the problems: There are no formal qualifications to become a debt consultant, and they can’t offer any legal protection. Unfortunately they can spend a lot of money on advertising, and it sounds good: they promise to reduce your debt. Of course "promising" and "doing" are two different things.
Last week I met with a person who heard the ads for a debt consultant called Cambridge Life Solutions on the radio. It sounded like a good deal. All they had to do was fax them all of their credit card statements, and open a separate savings account, and send Cambridge Life Solutions a void cheque. The deal was simple: Cambridge Life Solutions would withdraw $800 per month from her new savings account, and they would deal with her debt.
It sounded good, but this person was suspicious when the Cambridge Life Solutions representative told them to "not talk to any of the creditors; ignore them." Apparently this was because the creditors would "tell her a bunch of lies."
After three months of paying $800 per month to Cambridge Life Solutions, the credit card companies started sending letters, so the person I met with finally decided to answer the phone when they called. Guess what? None of the creditors had heard a word from the debt consultant! They had charged $2,400, and had done nothing!
Sadly, I’m not surprised, because I know how this "game" works. They want to get their fee paid first, which is often many hundreds, or thousands, of dollars. Then they want you to start saving money in your new savings account. If you can survive the phone calls and letters for a year or two, they hope that you will have saved up enough money to allow them to make a deal with your creditors.
So, for example, if you have $50,000 in credit card debts and bank loans, and if you haven’t made any payments on them for 18 months, it’s possible that the creditors will be willing to accept a cash settlement of 20 cents on the dollar, or $10,000. Makes sense, but ask yourself these questions:
What are the chances that I can save up $10,000? I’m in financial trouble now, so saving money is very difficult.
Will I be able to handle the stress of constant phone calls and letters for 18 months? Will my family be able to handle the phone calls?
What will my employer think if I start getting phone calls at work?
What happens if the credit card company decides to take me to court and sue me and garnishee my wages?
What if the credit card company won’t accept the deal?
Those are very good questions, and they illustrate the problem with using a debt consultant. Unless you have access to a lump sum of cash, and you are not worried about legal action, paying a lot of money to a debt consultant is not the correct solution.
What is the correct solution? It depends on your situation. If you have $50,000 in debt, and you can afford to pay $800 per month, you might be able to simply keep making payments on your own. If you can afford to pay $400 per month, a consumer proposal might be the correct solution. Your situation is unique, so contact us and we’ll walk you through your options (and we won’t charge you an up front fee).
I started this post by saying I’ve heard an increasing number of stories about debt consultants. I’m not the only one; here are some stories and comments from the rest of the Hoyes Michalos team from the last two weeks:
Wendy Young in Hamilton discusses whether or not debt consultants can really help;
Brian McIlmoyle in Mississauga asks Just What is a Debt Consultant? (and I like his answer: “But what exactly do they do? The simplest answer is “not much” other than separate you from your hard earned money.”
Joel Sandwith in Sarnia also asked what is a debt consultant?, and his conclusions were similar to Brian’s;
Susan Jung in St. Catharines was so incensed about debt consultants she told a three part story of "Tasha" in Debt Consultants Part 1, Debt Consultants Part 2 and Debt Consultants Part 3 (coming soon);
Rebecca Martyn in Windsor also objects to debt consultants charging huge fees, and not producing a legally binding settlement; she also thinks debt consultants are scary;
So here’s my summary: before you hand over your hard earned cash to anyone, check them out. Ask to meet with them in person! You may not be a debt expert, but as a human being you have lots of experience deciding whether or not someone is trustworthy, so arrange a personal meeting, and then make your decision.
Douglas Hoyes, Consumer Proposal Administrator, Bankruptcy Trustee
We’ve all heard the ads: “Government program will reduce your debts! Call now! Operators are standing by!”
Most of us have also received phone calls from telemarketers (they always call when you are eating dinner) promising to settle your debts if you “Act Now!”
Who are these debt consultants, and why can they afford to advertise heavily, and hire telemarketers?
The answer is that many of these debt consultants aren’t anybody at all. They don’t have any professional qualifications, and in many cases they don’t even have offices in Canada. They work out of call centers in the U.S., and they take your money and often don’t do anything at all. (It’s easy to have lots of money to spend on advertising if you never incur any costs to actually provide a service).
Believe it or not, many of them are nothing more than a referral service for bankruptcy trustees! They charge you a huge fee, and then refer you to a trustee!
Two weeks ago I reported on the results of my investigation into Cambridge Life Solutions, one of the big advertisers on radio. (When you read the article you will see that this is a classic example of a company from the U.S. making phone calls from their U.S. call center to unsuspecting Canadians).
So why do these debt consultants exist? They exist because most people with debt problems have never had debt problems before, so they don’t know who to turn to for help. You don’t want to talk to a bankruptcy trustee, because you’ve heard that bankruptcy trustees in Canada work for the creditors, right? (It’s not true, but that’s what debt consultants want you to believe). So, when you have a problem, you call the company that advertises the most.
Debt consultants do not require a government license, or any formal training, so anyone can call themselves a “debt consultant”. (You can read the Doug Hoyes biography for details on my professional qualifications and experience). That makes it easy for anyone to set up shop and start taking your money.
Debt consultants often charge huge up front fees. It’s not unusual to pay hundreds, even thousands of dollars to them before they even pick up the phone to contact your creditors to see if a deal is possible. (At Hoyes Michalos you don’t start paying until your consumer proposal is filed with the government, and a legal “stay of proceedings” is in place, preventing your unsecured creditors from taking you to court and garnisheeing your wages).
Finally, as noted above, a licensed bankruptcy trustee and consumer proposal administrator like the professionals at Hoyes Michalos provide legal protection from your creditors.
Debt consultants don’t.
I have no objection to companies helping people deal with their debts. I do object to unregulated companies with no professional qualifications using telemarketers to entice unsuspecting people into parting with thousands of dollars for nothing.
My advice? Do your research.
Before you hire anyone to help you solve your debt problems check them out on line, then arrange a personal, in person meeting. At Hoyes Michalos we are happy to talk to you over the phone to answer your questions, or give you some ideas with our free, on-line evaluation, but all the technology in the world is no substitute for a personal meeting, so before you sign any paperwork with us, and before you pay us any money, we will meet with you in person to review your options and help you make a plan that’s right for you.
Have you ever heard those commercials where the “debt consultant” promises to “reduce your debt by 80%!” Sounds too good to be true, doesn’t it?
Have you actually called one of those debt consultants, and had them say to you “you need to hire us, and pay us a lot of money, because we only work for you; a bankruptcy trustee works for your creditors! They don’t care about you!”
Is that true?
You have debts, and you want to solve your debts without filing bankruptcy, but you’ve heard that a consumer proposal is just as bad as bankruptcy?
Is that true?
There are a lot of debt myths out there, and whenever I meet with anyone who has questions about these myths, I take the time to explain what’s true, and what isn’t.
Doug Hoyes in the 570 News studios
Unfortunately I can only meet with one person at a time, so it’s hard to dispel all of these myths.
I need a wider audience, and this Saturday I’ll have one.
I’m pleased to announce something new: for the first time ever, we’ll be doing a one hour live radio show that will be broadcast on the radio, and on the internet on video!
That’s right, you can “see us on the radio”.
On Saturday September 24 from 1:05 pm to 2:00 pm Ted Michalos and Doug Hoyes will be appearing live on 570 News, and we’re going to spend the entire hour talking about Debt Myths.
You can participate in many ways. You can:
Listen on the radio to 570 News;
Listen on the internet, at 570News.com (just click the Listen Live button);
During the show you can e-mail us a question, and my office will relay it to the studio; or
Send me a Tweet on Twitter @doughoyes and I’ll try to respond on air, time permitting.
If you want to learn more about how to deal with debt (or if you’re just curious to see what it looks like to “watch” a radio show), please join us this Saturday after the 1:00 pm news on 570 News for our inside look at Debts Myths.
I spoke with a gentleman recently who is struggling with an overload of debt. He and his spouse are living on a limited income from pensions and do not own property, so creditors would not be able to take collection action such as a wage garnishee or liens against assets. However, that doesn’t stop interest from accumulating on the debts or telephone calls from collectors, which can be very stressful.
The stress doesn’t stop there, as he is in rapidly failing health and is very concerned about his spouse having to deal with all this when he is no longer able to.
What should he do?
He needs relief from the stress. He needs to quiet his mind about what will happen to his spouse when he is no longer with her. He needs to channel his strength into coping with a terminal illness and making his remaining time peaceful and meaningful for his family.
She needs to concentrate on supporting her spouse as he navigates his way through some very difficult treatments for his failing health. She needs to keep her strength up and her mind clear to deal with issues that were primarily his role in their relationship. And she needs to have freedom from other stresses to cope with the inevitable grieving process.
We shared a calm and direct chat about the bankruptcy process and I answered his many intelligent questions throughout.
What I found really interesting about this dignified gentleman was that he kept thanking me for taking the time to discuss his many concerns. He was grateful to be able to speak directly to a live person and not have to go through a lot of automation and useless prompts.
I assured him that all of the highly trained professionals at Hoyes Michalos & Associates do this with every inquiry we receive.
Not all situations are as dramatic as this one, but dealing with debt can certainly be awkward and difficult. It took this gentleman a long time to “get up the nerve” (his words) to call us.
If you want to get started on a plan to deal with your debts or have questions about the process, contact us. We’re here to help. I know this gentleman feels better knowing his options, and so will you.
The bankruptcy rate in Ontario dropped by 29% in 2010. Does that mean that the recession is over, and everything is fine? Not quite.
Douglas Hoyes, CA, Bankruptcy Trustee
It’s true that the number of personal bankruptcy filings in Ontario dropped from 66,935 in 2009 to 56,619 in 2010. That’s over 10,000 fewer bankruptcies, so yes, that’s definitely good news. However, before we start rejoicing at how great everything is, let’s consider three facts:
First, the level of debt we carry continues to increase. As I reported earlier this month, credit cards continue to create a financial abyss for “Joe Debtor”, the average person who files bankruptcy. As long as our debt levels remain at record levels, it’s inevitable that the number of bankruptcies will increase. They may drop for a year or two, but long term they can only increase.
Second, one of the reasons bankruptcies decreased was because the federal government changed the bankruptcy rules in September 2009 to make it more expensive to file bankruptcy if you have surplus income. The new rules also extended the length of bankruptcy, meaning you could now be bankrupt longer. As a result there was a surge in bankruptcies in the month leading up to the new rules, and then a corresponding drop off in the months after. If you compare 2010 to the record year of 2009, it’s not surprising that the numbers in 2010 dropped. However, the number of bankruptcies filed in 2010 is still higher than 2008′s numbers, so the trend remains up.
Third, while bankruptcies fell, the number of consumer proposals filed in 2010 increased substantially. In 2009 20,414 consumer proposals were filed in Ontario; that number increased by almost 16% to 23,619 in 2010.
Again, that’s not surprising. If bankruptcy is now more expensive and lasts longer, it’s natural for more people to file consumer proposals as a way to avoid bankruptcy.
Here’s my take on these results:
I’m pleased that the economy showed a slight improvement in 2010, and I’m pleased that the unemployment rate in Ontario remains lower than it is in the United States, and I’m glad our interest rates remain low. However, we can’t rely on low interest rates forever.
Our world is in turmoil, with protests against government happening in Africa and the Middle East, nuclear power problems in Japan, and of course a federal election in Canada in May. With this uncertainty we don’t know what tomorrow will bring. If this volatility causes upward pressure on interest rates, our debt service costs go up, and the economy slows down, and that’s not good for the average person.
That being said, I am pleased that consumer proposal filings are increasing. I meet with and talk to dozens of people each week, and almost every one of them is happy to avoid bankruptcy if possible, while still dealing with their debts. That’s a positive trend for the future.
Are Debt Consolidation Loans Better Than Bankruptcy?
It’s important when considering solutions to debt problems, to consider all your options and to weigh up the advantages and disadvantages of each. Sometimes the correct solution for you may not always be the first one considered.
When considering your options to deal with the debts you have, many people will first explore the idea of a debt consolidation loan.
A debt consolidation loan is a loan that a financial institution will give you that allows you to group together other debts by paying them off with the loan. For example, if you have three different debts that total $15,000 a loan company may give you a loan for $15,000 and you would use the loan to pay off the three debts with. You’re replacing three old debts with one new debt.
Debt consolidation loans have some advantages:
Because you now only have one payment to make, it should be easier to budget
If the interest rate on your loan is lower than the interest rates on your credit cards, then it should save you money in interest payments
By combining three interest rates into one, your overall monthly payment could be lower
However, they also have some disadvantages:
A debt consolidation loans are becoming increasingly difficult to obtain.
You may need a co-signor. If you do, you’re now bringing someone else into the responsibility of your debt problems
You may need to put something up as security such as your house. If consolidating debts through a second mortgage, your house will now be at risk if you don’t keep up with the payments
The lender will want to see you have a steady income, employment and a good credit rating before considering whether or not to qualify you for the loan.
Some financial institutions may qualify you for a loan, but at a high rate of interest.
Debt consolidation loans require discipline. If you qualify for the loan and then you continue to incur new debts again on the credit cards, you’re essentially increasing your debt load leading to further problems.
Your credit score will drop. Instead of having three accounts with a good payment history, you now only have one.
Sometimes debt consolidation loans won’t work for you.
Howard Hayes - Client Services
Don’t forget, a lenders primary motivation for wanting to qualify you for a debt consolidation loan is because they believe they can money from you.
If the debt load you have is just too overwhelming and the monthly payments on a debt consolidation loan will be too high or you simply don’t qualify then you’ll need to start looking at other options. Bankruptcy is an option, but it may not be the only other answer.
The advantages of filing a bankruptcy would be that you’d be clearing yourself of all the debts as opposed to re-financing them. You don’t need to qualify to file for bankruptcy; it’s a choice you make. It’s the quickest and cheapest way to clear yourself of debt problems and it legally protects you when accounts get behind and you face collection problems and the threats of legal action against you.
Many people will search for help in consolidating debts as a way to avoid filing bankruptcy and often fall into the trap of committing to a higher interest rate debt consolidation loan because the only financial institutions that will qualify you will typically charge you a higher rate of interest for doing so. The fear of bankruptcy and the fear of losing assets will often lead people to the clutches of lenders that care more for their profits than they do about you as a customer.
The good news is that there is another way. Consumer Proposals are becoming more and more the number one alternative to bankruptcy and the number one way to consolidate debts.
A Consumer Proposal is a legally binding settlement of debts. Proposals can be filed with the help of a trustee. It allows you to offer payment terms to the people that you owe money to that you can realistically afford. You’re allowed a maximum of five years in which to complete a proposal and there is no interest charged on what you repay. In the same way a debt consolidation loan groups all your debts into one payment, a Consumer Proposal does too except this time, instead of paying the principal debts plus interest, you’re only paying back what you offer to pay back.
Sounds too good to be true? Well consider the position of the people you owe money too. If you don’t qualify for a debt consolidation loan, and as much as you may want to still avoid a bankruptcy, they want to avoid it too. They’d rather accept a Consumer Proposal that is offered on the premise that they’d rather get something back that nothing.
Finding ways to solve a debt problem is never easy. Here at Hoyes Michalos & Associates Inc we recognize that no two people’s debts problems are exactly the same and therefore the best solutions for a debt problem will depend entirely on your specific circumstances. As such, we always recommend that you contact us right away and speak to one of our professionals about your situation and we’ll go over all the options you have. Whether you just want to talk on the phone or book an appointment to come in to one of our offices for a chat, it’s a free service we offer and there’s no obligation. Contact us by email or call today at 310-PLAN and let’s get started.
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