Money Talks With Gail Vaz-Oxlade

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Posted in Money Tips
Posted by J. Douglas Hoyes, CA, CPA, LIT, CIRP, CBV

money talks gail vaz oxlade

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Nobody Talks About How to Talk About Money

Gail Vaz-Oxlade is back on the show to discuss her new book, Money Talks: When To Say Yes And How To Say No. Gail is our most downloaded podcast guest, and this is her FIRST podcast interview for her new book! Gail starts out the episode by exclaiming,

I'm so excited for this new book, I cannot begin to tell you! My toes are curling!"

So you know it'll be a good one!

Not only does she give away a few secrets about the not yet released book, but she also gives us actionable advice and tips for starting the conversation about money. The topic of the book is one that hasn't been written about before, "nobody has actually done this before. Nobody has actually talked about how to have these conversations with the people in your life."

Communication Is Key

Unlike her past books that focused on technical financial processes, Gail's newest book is all about why and how we should communicate about money. She explains that

how we communicate about our money is what's at the root of whether the money is working for us in our relationships.

Simply put, we need to start talking about our needs and wants with our friends, family and significant others. If we don't talk about money - how much we have, where it's going, how much we owe and how it makes us feel - money will continue to be a problem in our lives.

Gail offered up a quote directly from her new book and it sums up the need for communication perfectly:

We are the problem. How we behave—what we do with our money and how we communicate about that behaviour—is at the root of most of the challenges we face with, and blame on, money.

The Power Struggle

I ask Gail why we're all so secretive about our money and she quickly identifies power and control as main motivators for avoiding money conversations. When it comes to power struggles a few scenarios make it easier to block others out:

  • Not including children in our money conversations to maintain a sense of power;
  • Primary Breadwinner Syndrome or the "I make the money, so I decide how it's spent" rule;
  • Keeping your spouse in the dark about your finances;
  • Financial bullying by one spouse; and
  • The patriarchal/matriarchal money approach.

What's more, Gail points out that it's common to fall victim to the Recency Effect and that we believe that where we are now is where we're always going to be. Instead of having productive conversations about money and debt, people cast themselves in a certain role, unwilling to change their own behaviour.

Gail uses the example of "The Nagger" where one person is constantly nit picking someone else. In her book, Chapter 11 is titled "I Can't Hear You" and delves into why it's important to listen to yourself and put yourself in the other person's shoes to change your situation. Gail points out that, "if you don't want that role, I have a way for you to get out of that role". You just have to be willing to open your lines of communication.

So how do you do that?

Get Rid Of Your Emotional Attachment To Money

Money is a physical entity. Money is not a feeling and it's certainly not an emotion.

But we attach emotion to our money, making it hard to talk about. Gail got her idea for the book from the hundred of letters she receives from people, and from the numerous television shows that she's hosted. A common thread between all of those questions and comments was a lack of communication and people's unwillingness to talk about money because they'd become emotionally attached.

To get past the emotion, Gail's book includes over 70 scenarios for readers to relate to. Through those scenarios, readers will be able to visualize their own situation and better understand how to deal with conversations about money. To make it even easier, Gail provides you with the type of language that you should be using because as she explains,

I believe with all my heart that until we tell each other the truth about what we’re feeling and how we’re responding, what we’re doing is we are creating a mythology that can’t hold. There is no way we can keep this mythology going forever and what will happen is the whole thing will dissolve and we’ll just get bitten in the butt.

Listen to the full podcast for more information about:

  • Why parents should teach their children about money early on
  • How to talk to children about money

Read the full transcript below.

Resources Mentioned In the Show:

Gail's Previous Appearances on Debt Free in 30:

Doug Hoyes Appears on Gail's TV Shows:

Get Gail's latest book at amazon.ca:

FULL TRANSCRIPT show #66 with Gail Vaz-Oxlade

money-talks-gail-vaz-oxlade-transcriptDoug Hoyes: This is episode number 66 of Debt Free in 30. And since this is a weekly show that means we've been on the air from more than 15 months. And I can tell you based on the download statistics I get for the podcast version of this show, my most popular guest in the last 65 weeks is none other than Gail Vaz-Oxlade host of three television shows, her own radio show and the author of many books including a brand new book that we're going to talk about today.

Gail was my guest back on show number three and she gave a very interesting explanation for why she has no desire to go back to being a host of a reality T.V show. So, if you haven’t listened to that episode, check it out on our website on hoyes.com or on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. So, what's been Gail up since we last talked? Let's find out, Gail, welcome to show. How are you doing today?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  I am great, Doug. How are you?

Doug Hoyes: I am great. It's fantastic to have you back on. We're recording this on December the 1st, 2015 (if I've got my calendar right) and it will be released as a podcast and on the radio December 5th. And I understand that on Tuesday December 8th, the new book hits the shelves in the bookstores. So, is this the first podcast interview you've done about this book, Gail?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  It absolutely is and I am so excited for this new book like I cannot even begin to tell you. My toes are curling.

Doug Hoyes: Well, so let's hear about it then. What's the name of the book?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Okay, so the book's called Money Talks with a subtitle When to Say Yes and How to Say No. And it is - the whole idea behind this book is that how we communicate about our money is what's at the root of whether the money is working for us in our relationships.

Very often, people will say money is one of the things that causes relationships to fall to rack and ruin. And my premise in writing this book is that, you know what? If we don’t start talking about this, if we don’t start getting better at communicating what our needs and wants are to our family, to our friends, to our mates, then we will just keep on this sort of hamster wheel of making money become a problem in our lives instead of being no more than a means of making a transaction.

Doug Hoyes: So, money is a medium of change is what you're saying.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  That's right. That's all money is. But how we respond to each other, that has a big influence on what we end up doing with our money.

Doug Hoyes: So, money isn’t the problem, we're the problem.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  There's a line in the book that says "we are the problem. How we behave, what we do with our money and how we communicate about it, that's at the root of most of the challenges that we face and blame on our money".

Doug Hoyes: So, we say my problem is I don’t have enough money, I don’t think too many people complain about having too much money.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  But they're more things, they're things about not being able to get our mates to make a budget, not being able to impress upon our sister that our couch is not her ongoing bed. Not being able to communicate with our parents that, listen dudes, don’t think I'm your retirement plan 'cause I got my own crap going on. And if you think that you're moving into my basement because you made me, then we need to talk about this.

Doug Hoyes: And the same with your kids, I guess.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Totally the same with your kids! You know, one of the things that I try and impress upon parents is that if you are enabling your children, if you are constantly bailing out your kids, what are they going to do when you drop dead?

Doug Hoyes: Yeah, they got a big problem. Well, and I've always said to my kids I got two teenage boys, I've said you know what? When I'm gone, I'm leaving all of my money to a cat charity. And I don’t have any cats, I don’t particularly like cats, but the point is well you're not going to get any of it. So, you better go out there and earn your own money, make your own way.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  And I've said exactly the same thing to my kids.

Doug Hoyes: Cool.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely. You know, because Doug I have watched people who have sat and waited for their relatives to die to solve their financial issues. Because they think that if they can spend all the money they want right now, they don’t have to save anything for retirement if they rack up debt it's okay because there's this trillion dollar inheritance that the media's been talking about for years. And I'm here to tell you that trillion dollar inheritance is going to go into healthcare and personal care for your folks because they're going to live a long, long time and all the money's going to be gone.

Doug Hoyes: Yeah, you're right. If my parents live to be 90, from 80 to 90 they're heavy consumers of healthcare services, you're right, that money ends up getting eaten up. So, you're saying that we're unwilling to talk about money, why? Why the big secret? What's the issue?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  I scratch my head. Okay, the thing is that what we've done is we've allowed a lot of emotion to link itself up to our money. So, one of the things that I talk about in the book is the fact that other people are very good at pushing our emotional buttons. And by pushing those emotional buttons they can derive the reaction that they're looking for. But really it goes even further back then that because parents seem unwilling to talk to their kids about money, how it works, what you can or cannot do with it, even as we are raising children in a world where we know that if we don’t educate our kids about money, what we're doing is sending them off into the wolves' hands.

So, I think this whole thing about money and not talking about it is so rooted in us, it doesn’t really matter where it started, the fact is until we cut it out, until we get rid of this monster emotional attachment to our privacy - just think of all those guys that do those articles and they hold up newspapers in front of their faces or they hold up buckets of popcorn in front of their faces. They're perfectly happy to share their financial deets but only if nobody knows who they are.

Doug Hoyes: So, we have no trouble talking to our kids about you know, you shouldn't do drugs and you shouldn't drink and drive, but -

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  But money, which is something everybody has to deal with in their life, and it's no more emotional than the paper and coin of which it's made. Paper and coin is not emotional. That's the thing that we don’t want to have a conversation with our kids. We don’t want to tell them how much we earn. We don’t want to tell them how much we're spending for rent or what we're paying for our car payments. I don’t understand it.

Doug Hoyes: Is it a power thing?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Sometimes it is. Sometimes it is and that's one of the things that I talk about in the book, this whole idea of power and control and how we use money to sort of maintain our sense of power and control. It's lousy, Doug, because let's face it, the last thing you want to do is teach your children that the person who has more money has power and control over them. You want your children to grow up strong and healthy and knowing the place where money should play in their life. Not believing that he who has the most money has the most power.

Doug Hoyes: And I would assume that can have a pretty detrimental effect on relationships as well.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely. And so the book deals with a whole bunch of power issues that people are sort of still coming to grips with. You know, this whole idea of primary bread winner syndrome; you know the guy who makes all the money gets to make all the decisions. Or we'll just keep little old sweetheart in the dark about what we're doing with our money because what she doesn’t know can't hurt her. Bullying is a big issue in couples where one person ends up being a financial bully in the relationship. Then there's the person who takes a very patriarchal approach. And this is not just men, the patriarchal or matriarchal approach can be women as well, but this whole idea that I'm in control here and I make the decisions about what's going to be happening with our money.

Doug Hoyes: Yeah and that has a horrible effect if the - it's typical now that women outlive men. And so if in a traditional set up, the man is making all the financial decisions or even just he's the one who writes the cheques, if we still write cheques anymore, and then he passes away five or 10 years before his wife does. And now all of a sudden late in life she's got to figure out how it all works, that's got to be pretty damaging as well I would think.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  And I've actually seen role reversal on that. And that's one of the things I talk about in the book is role reversal because we now have a dynamic where women are making more than their male partners and that's having some significant impact on how they relate to each other. Again, it should not. I mean if you take the emotion out of it and you deal with the resource this family has, then it's not about the emotion attached to it. But unfortunately, there is emotion attached to it.And so you have to figure out the words to use in order to take the emotion out and make this be a discussion about resources, not about power and control.

And that's one of the things that I've done in the book that's a little bit different is that I have created dozens and dozens of scenarios where people will see themselves or see people they know and love, and finally come to some sort of understanding of what the dynamic is that's going on there.

Doug Hoyes: So, it's almost a series of 50 different plays or whatever if you want to look at it that way.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  There are about 70 scenarios in the book. And the idea being that if you can see yourself in this scenario, you're much more likely to understand why you have to take the steps that you have to take cause every chapter deals with my advice to you in terms of dealing with the denial issue or the entitlement issue or the control issue. But also here are the steps that you're going to have to take if you want to be the person who fixes this problem. You don’t fix the problem then you can't whine about the fact that the problem continues to exist.

Doug Hoyes: So, if someone is listening to this today and they're in a relationship where their spouse is either overly controlling or whatever the opposite of overly controlling is and they realize there's a problem, what you're saying is you've got a scenario in this book that talks about how to identify that and then what to do about that, how to play it out?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely. And I give the words; I give you words that you can wrap your head and your tongue around. I'm not saying these are the only words you should use, but at least there's a starting point for the language you can use because I've had heaps and heaps of experience with this. I mean, after working with all those people on television, believe you me, I had to come up with some tactful ways of saying some things.

So, some of this is tact and some of this is just straight up telling the truth. Because I believe with all my heart that until we tell each other the truth about what we're feeling and how we are responding, what we're doing is we are creating a mythology that can't hold. There's no way we can keep this mythology going forever. And so, what will happen is eventually the whole thing will dissolve and we'll just get bitten in the butt.

Doug Hoyes: So, can you give me an example of the wrong way to do something or the traditional way that gets people into trouble, anyone of these scenarios. I mean, make people buy the book so they can find out how to do it right, but what's an example of the wrong way to do something? Words we use that are wrong, inflammatory words, how do we make mistakes in these areas?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Well, in part two, which is called "changing the game". The idea is that people really hate change and that as human beings we suffer from something called Recency Effect, meaning that we believe that wherever we are now is where we're always going to be.

Unfortunately, what happens sometimes is that people cast themselves in the role of The Nagger. And so what we do is we go nah, nah, nah, nah, we jump on every little thing that the person does and we're not about changing behaviour in a productive way that we'll be sustainable with such a resort of picking on things that are really less relevant than the thing that's actually the elephant in the room.

And so, I try to encourage people to not take on the role of The Nagger, understanding that when you nag, what happens is eventually and this is the title of the chapter, "I can't hear you". People just plug their ears. And so if you want to bring about real change in a mate, in a sibling, even in your parents you need to walk away from the nagging role and you need to deal with whatever it is you have to deal with in a very straight forward, very truthful, very loving, but very firm way.

Doug Hoyes: Because we're not in grade two, I guess.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Well, it's not even a matter of not being in grade two. I can't tell you how many times I've seen scenarios play out where people think that the nah, nah, nah is going to work. Like, really? In what world would you want to be nagged like that? So, part of understanding how your mate is responding or how your sister is responding is putting yourself in their shoes and listening to yourself for a minute because if you sound like that horrible harridan then nobody's going to hear what you have to say.

Doug Hoyes: Well, and this why I've always like your approach. What you're really saying at its very core is we got to think, we go to take responsibility for ourselves. If the people I interact with in my life aren’t behaving the way I want them to behave, it's really a problem with me not a problem with them.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Well, it's part of a problem with you and a problem with them because let's take the example of Peter Pan. This is something that psychologists have studied for awhile and so we know it's a thing, Peter Pan syndrome. And all the people who plunge themselves in the Wendy role they share this dynamic. And so you need to understand what the dynamic is. Sure you can identify, we've seen lots of people say it's a boy/man. But what do you do about it? How do you change the dynamic or how do you change your own life so you're not having to live in this dynamic anymore? And sometimes that change is really, really hard to make, but if you are not prepared to make the change then at the very least stop whining.

Doug Hoyes: Because the whining isn’t doing anybody any good.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  No, it's not. So, if you love this person so much that you're prepared to put up with his or her crap, then put up with his or her crap. Don’t then turn around and make yourself into the victim because really you have accepted that role. If you don’t want that role, I have a way for you to get out of that role.

Doug Hoyes: And you're talking about the dynamic in families, relationships, but I guess this extends to just co-workers and friends as well. You got that guy at work who always wants to borrow $20 till payday.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely, and so that's exactly one of the scenarios that I talk about, the whole idea that there are always people who seem to be willing to tap your wallet, whether it be for a short-term loan or yet one more collection at work for the gift. This thing has always boggled my mind. People come to work with us, we don’t throw them a party. We're going to spend the next six months, six years, 16 years with this person, but we don’t welcome them. Instead what we do is we wait for them to be leaving and then we throw them a party.

Doug Hoyes: And so the scenarios you talk about in the book are, one of them is how to not be bailing people out all the time.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Yep, how to say it with kindness and love, but say it quite explicitly; I'm sorry, I'm not going to let you tap my wallet anymore.

Doug Hoyes: And I think in a lot of cases I've dealt with people, I've had to do bankruptcies for people and I say what happened? Well, you know, I helped out my kids, I helped out my friend and they weren’t able to pay me back. And I'm going well I'm absolutely a big fan of helping people out, I think that's fantastic, but I don’t believe in going deep into debt to do it. If you can help someone out with the cash in your pocket that's your cash, great fantastic, but when you have to go into debt to do it, you're causing yourself a great deal of difficulty. So, you've got scenarios in here to help us understand how far you should go or more the words to not get into that mess in the first place.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Well, the recognizing that there are people out there using guilt as an emotional button or using fear, - like "if you can't keep a way to help your brother then you're not the child I thought you were". It's like a parental bullying. Very often I get letters from people who explain situations to me and what they're looking for is the way to say no, they don’t have the words to say no. Because every expectation is that they're going to say yes, which is why the sub-title is when to say yes and how to say no. And so people will write to me and they'll say how do I say no to this? And so I give them the words and that's really where this book came from. It came from hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of letters that I get from people asking me, Gail, what do I say?

Doug Hoyes: And so, you've been working on this book for awhile, then?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  I have been working on this book for awhile. I think this is, you know, when I first started, Doug, when I wrote that Debt Free Forever it was a process book. Debt Free Forever is all about how to make a debt repayment plan, how to create a budget, how to set some goals for yourself, how to start saving. It's the foundation book. When I wrote Never Too Late, it's how to save for retirement. And so there are process books that I have written. When I got to Money Rules it was my final attempt to get the common sense of money out there. These are all the things that you should have told your children that you didn’t, at least go buy them the book and hand it to them, okay? So, things like renting is not a waste of money.

Doug Hoyes: I agree.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Some people have to rent. Home ownership is not for everyone. Things like embrace anticipation. Things like it's not your money until it's in the bank 'cause I've had people write to me long sad letters about how they were going to get a bonus, went out and spent the money on their credit card and oh woe is me, the bonus never came through and so now they're in debt, it's not their fault - hello! It's not your money until it's in the bank.

So, that was the common sense of money. What this is, is the last piece is missing. Nobody actually has done this before. Nobody has actually talked about how you have these conversations with the people in your life. How do you say to somebody you love, you know what? You're an instant gratification junky and we need to talk about that. Or I can't go on that vacation with you because in good conscience I can't watch you spend you haven’t saved for something stupid. So, I love you, you are my friend, I would love to go on a vacation with you, but you have to show me you have the money in the bank before I'm prepared to do that because I can't come back and listen to your whining for the next six months.

Doug Hoyes: That's a great way to end the segment, so the book is called, Money Talks: When to Say Yes and How to Say No. Gail Vaz-Oxlade's new book hits the stores December the 8th. Gail, thanks for being here.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  My pleasure.

Doug Hoyes: It's time for the Let's Get Started segment here on Debt Free in 30. I'm joined by Gail Vaz-Oxlade. We're talking about her new book, Money Talks: When to Say Yes and How to Say No.

So, Gail a real common one that I think parents would get is can you buy me that thing? I need that thing, I need that thing. And so of course as a parent my standard response would be, what do you think, I'm made of money? Money doesn’t grow on trees. And as you said in the first segment probably being a whiny, naggy person is not the correct approach. Is that a common issue you see and if so what mind frame should parents think through to stay out of that?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  It absolutely is common. I mean that's why those statements like what, do you think I'm made of money or do you think money grows on trees have just become standard. But they actually don’t teach anything so all you're doing is losing the opportunity to teach a really important lesson when you let these things go by.

And you know, I am one of the people who believes that teaching about money belongs at home. I know there's a big push to put it into schools, but really to teach about money it has to be an ongoing thing, it can't be three classes in the math section and two classes in social studies. It needs to be consistent and it needs to be ongoing.

And you need to give kids some money to deal with it. So, the single best way of eliminating the "buy me this won't you dad", is to start giving your kids the money that you would normally spend on them as an allowance and then setting some expectations about what they do with that money. And so, if they want to buy the latest game for their system or they want to buy a new pair of shoes or they want to buy whatever, you simply say, do you have the money for that, 'cause if you have the money for that go nuts babyo. But if you don’t have the money for that I don’t want to hear about it.

Doug Hoyes: So, the answer to the kids is you can buy whatever you want with your money, then.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  That's right and we as parents need to stop thinking of an allowance as money we give our kids to throw away because that's not what an allowance is. Allowance is what we would normally spend on our children put in their hands so they can learn how to manage money.

Doug Hoyes: And I assume that's something that would vary with the age of the child, obviously.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely. And so I started both my kids on allowances when they were six years old and over time they got more money. By the time my daughter, Alex was 12, she was getting her clothing allowance monthly. And she had to learn to manage that money, make choices about what she was going to do with that money because that money was a finite resource. And so, when the money ran out she had to stop spending.

My son was just home from college. He has a very strict budget that he has to live on while he's at college. And I said to him, so how are you doing on the money front? And he said well I only got $50 left to last me to the end of the month because he went out and bought a few things at the beginning of the month and so then he had to pull back. He had to reign in what he was spending because he had a limited amount of money that he had to - couldn’t get more before the end of the month.

And you know, Doug, he has all the money in a savings account. He's only allowed to transfer over $650 a month to cover all his costs while he's at school. And that's what the rule is. So, you take more than that and Mommy will slap you silly.

Doug Hoyes: Yeah but when he gets out of university, he will have practiced this for years and years and years.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely. And this is the thing I say to parents, why would you want your children to fail where they're not safe? Far better they have the opportunity to try and they will bruise their knees from time to time. And that's okay, then you have a discussion about how they're going to fix the problem. You don’t rush in with your cheque book.

Doug Hoyes: And do you - I mean obviously you believe in having an allowance for a child and you said an allowance is what I would have been spending on your clothing anyways, I'm going to give you that money give or take. What about actually paying children for chores they do. Do you believe in that or not?

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Well, I'm of two minds on the chore issue. The first is that the chores that kids normally do around the house they should not be paid for because nobody pays me to cook them dinner.

Doug Hoyes: They're part of the family, they have to contribute.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely. But if you want to find a way to put more money in their hands so that they can achieve some goals that they're really working towards, then you can create a honey do list with dollar values attached to the things you want them to do around the house. So, if I had a cat I would be more than happy to pay my kid to clean the cat litter; I'm not going anywhere near that box.

Doug Hoyes: I got you. So, doing the dishes every night, that's something we've all got to do. But cleaning out the gutters or cleaning the cat litter or whatever, well, okay that's kind of over and above. That's something you would potentially consider paying them an allowance for.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely. Anything I would be willing to pay someone else to do, I'm happy to pay my kids to do.

Doug Hoyes: Excellent. Well, that's an excellent perspective on it. You've got to start them young and then they learn how to do it.

Gail Vaz-Oxlade:  Absolutely, get lots of practice.

Doug Hoyes: Great, thanks very much, Gail. I appreciate you being on the show today. That was Gail Vaz-Oxlade, talking about her new book, Money Talks: When to Say Yes and How to Say No. It's available at fine book stores everywhere. It's available at Amazon and other places that you buy books. There is apparently also a Kindle version if that's how you prefer to consume it.

So, you can go to hoyes.com and the show notes have links to all that information including to Gail's website. So, check out the new book Money Talks. That was the Let's Get Started segment; I'll be right back to wrap it up right here on Debt Free in 30.

Doug Hoyes: Welcome back, it's time for the 30 second recap of what we discussed today. On today's show Gail Vaz-Oxlade told us about her new book, Money Talks: When to Say Yes and How to Say No, where she presents dozens of examples of how to talk to friends and family members about money. That's the 30 second recap of what we discussed today.

As Gail said during the show, she's written books in the past about the process of budgeting and money management but his book is entirely about helping you see your situation through stories that reflect what you may be experiencing. Her hope is that by recognizing your situation you could learn the actual words to say to negotiate a solution. That's a subject that I don’t think has been covered in any current book about money so it should be a great help to many people dealing with money problems.

That's our show for today. Full show notes are available on our website including links to Gail's website and information on where you can buy her new book. So please go to our website at hoyes.com for more information. Thanks for listening, until next week, I'm Doug Hoyes. That was Debt Free in 30.

About J. Douglas Hoyes

Doug is our co-founder and is a Licensed Insolvency Trustee, Consumer Proposal Administrator, certified Insolvency Counsellor and Chartered Professional Accountant.

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