In 2016 the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre (CAFC) received 77,348 mass marketing fraud complaints with a total reported dollar loss of $99,198,188. That's a big number, but CAFC believes that fewer than 5% of victims file a report. It's likely that because of the unreported instances, victims lost approximately $2 billion in Canada due to mass market fraud in 2016.
Fraudsters keep coming up with new scams, so it's important to be aware of the new scams, and understand how to protect yourself and your loved ones.
To find out how to recognize the new scams and protect yourself, I'm pleased to welcome Kelley Keehn back to our show. Kelley was my guest back on show #75 where we discussed a book she wrote for the CPA Institute Protecting You and Your Money: A Guide To Avoiding Identity Theft and Fraud. Kelley has published eight books, co-hosted a TV show, regularly contributes to publications like The Globe & Mail, and has had numerous TV appearances including as the personal finance expert on The Marilyn Denis Show.
Most Dangerous Frauds To Watch Out For In 2017
A growing number of seniors are turning to the internet to find companionship and love. Unfortunately scammers will spend months, even years gaining the trust of their victim by following and engaging with them on Facebook and other social media. Once trust is established the scammer will ask for money, often for an emergency (travel costs, or medical bills). They will often ask for the money to be sent through an untraceable form, so not an interac e-transfer, but a wire transfer through a cash store.
Kelley's advice: beware of anyone who asks for money, particularly in an untraceable form, because they are generally scammers.
Phishing is an attempt to obtain sensitive information such as usernames, passwords, and credit card details by pretending to be a legitimate company or person. Scammers will pretend to be a bank or other trusted authority, and ask you to click a link to confirm your social insurance number or other information. Once they have that information, they can access bank accounts, apply for credit, or do other financial damage.
Kelley's advice: never click on a link in an email. If the email is from the bank, close the email, go to the bank's website, and then phone or contact them through their site. An even better option is to go to directly to the bank in person.
There seems to be a new variation of a CRA scam every year. The calls are often placed from a call centre in another country. They target seniors or immigrants, who may be less familiar with how CRA operates. The scammers advise you that you owe money, and threaten to put you in jail if you don't pay.
Kelley's advice: slow down. Don't make rush decisions. Hang up the phone, call a friend to discuss it, and research it online before parting ways with your hard earned money
If you know a senior, or someone who could be at risk of being defrauded, share this episode of the Debt Free in 30 podcast with them.
Resources related to today's show:
- Show #75 Tips to Protect Yourself From Identity Theft and Fraud with Kelley Keehn
- Kelley's latest book: Protecting You and Your Money: A Guide to Avoiding Identity Theft and Fraud
- Financial Planning Standards Council
- Report an incident to the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre
- Competition Bureau of Canada: Videos featured in Little Black Book of Scams
- Competition Bureau of Canada: PDF version of Little Black Book of Scams
- Scammer's May Mention Personal Information to Look Legit
- Ontario Securities Commission: Check Before You Invest
- Find your financial planner with financialplanningforcanadians.ca
FULL TRANSCRIPT show #132 with Kelley Keehn
Doug Hoyes: March is Fraud Prevention Month in Canada and it's a topic near and dear to my heart because over the years I've helped a lot of people who got into debt due to fraud. Sometimes it's because they lent their debit card or credit card to a friend or family member and they used the card and racked up a lot of debt. Or someone stole their credit card and figured out their password and now they're stuck with the debt.
We first covered this topic way back on show #75 here on Debt Free in 30 That was over a year ago back in February 2016 and my guest on that show was Kelley Keehn who ran her own wealth management firm before selling her practice and since then she's published eight books, co-hosted a TV show, write regularly for publications like The Globe and Mail and appears on TV all the time, including as the personal finance expert on the Marilyn Denis Show.
Last year, Kelley talked about a book she wrote for the CPA Institute, Protecting You and Your Money: A Guide to Avoiding Identity Theft and Fraud, and she told me some scary statistics. Like, a third of Canadians have been victims of some type of fraud, and two-thirds of Canadians said that they knew of someone who was a victim of fraud. So even if it hasn't happened to us yet, a lot of us know someone who was a victim of fraud.
So clearly fraud is a big issue, either for you or someone know. But that was last year. Has the situation improved? How much fraud is happening now?
To find out, I'm very pleased to welcome back to the show, Kelley Keehn. Kelley thanks for being here, how are you doing today?
Kelley Keehn: I'm great, Doug. Thanks for having me.
Doug Hoyes: So thanks for being here. I know you're on a whirlwind tour while you're here in the wonderful province of Ontario.
My first question for you.
Kelley Keehn: Yeah.
Doug Hoyes: Is this really, this whole, you know, Fraud Prevention Month, is this really just a big media stunt? Because come on. I read your book, we talked about it on the show last year. Look. Change your password, don't give your password out, you're going to be fine. This is really not - we're over-thinking this having a whole month to talk about fraud prevention. I assume that, I don't know, somebody's making money off you somewhere. Is this really that big a deal?
Kelley Keehn: You've raised some very good points. It is that big of a deal. The Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre is estimating that in 2006 it was nearly $100 million was suffered by Canadians -
Doug Hoyes: 2016.
Kelley Keehn: 2016. Thank you. All types of fraud. Mass marketing fraud. Identity theft, and all of that.
Now that number is alarming, but that number is not representative of what's actually happening because the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre has told me time and time again, every single year, regardless of the fraud or the type, that only five percent of Canadians are reporting when they're a victim.
Doug Hoyes: Wow.
Kelley Keehn: So who knows what that number is? And when we're talking about Fraud Prevention Month isn't is just changing your password, like you said. Isn't it just some simple things?
Yes, there are some simple things that Canadians still are not getting. But when we think about those numbers, Doug, when you think about the people that were in front of you, victims of fraud. You know, that went to people overseas. That went to criminal organizations. That went to fund things that fundamentally we don't support as Canadians. And that went out of the hands of, you know, maybe people like my parents or your parents or grandparents and the people that I interviewed for the book, I'm not a fraud expert, I aggregated the book and interviewed dozens of experts all over the world, and you know, they told me these gut-wrenching stories of people that actually went so far as to commit suicide because of the fraud. And we're hearing those even now in March because it's Fraud Prevention Month.
So there's more than just the dollar aspect. There's where did these dollars go? What does this fund with the fraudsters, and then the health implications of being a senior and being on a fixed income and losing everything to a romance scam or something like that, or a Bernie Madoff or an Earl Jones or I'm from Alberta, there's tons of bad land deals over the last number of years and gold deals. And now the Ontario Securities Commission is telling me that there's a binary options scam going on where it's like a gambling online thing that is very complex, even hard for me to wrap my head around. But you know, it's coming back to the fundamentals of too good to be true, all those types of things.
Doug Hoyes: So real people are being impacted. That's what you're saying.
Kelley Keehn: Yeah.
Doug Hoyes: And you're right. If there's 100 million of fraud being reported, and only five percent is being reported, so we're talking well over a billion dollars, and who knows what the real numbers are – well, so okay, you just mentioned a bunch of things that I don't even know what you're talking about. Binary whatever whatever. And I don't think we're even going to get into that today because that's going to be way above both of our heads. So let's talk about some of the new kinds of fraud or more prevalent kinds of fraud that are out there.
So you already mentioned one. Romance scams.
Kelley Keehn: Mm-hmm.
Doug Hoyes: So tell me about romance scams. What are you talking about there?
Kelley Keehn: So this isn't a new one, but the way that the fraudsters prey on people can be a little bit new.
So what this is, is basically somebody falsifying that they are in love with you via a number of different ways. I just bought my 77-year-old mom a smart phone. I think actually when I was on your show the last time. And it's year two and she still doesn't grasp the difference between Facebook and text messaging and all of that. And I worry for her that - and I keep in constant contact with her about who she's talking to, the kind of friends that she's accepting.
But she just doesn't grasp that - I was just over at her house the other night and I saw she had a little bubble on her phone with a guy's face, and I was like, who's that? And she's like, oh, he's this nice guy I met on Facebook. And I was like, oh mom, let's just have the talk.
So we just clicked in, I said, you know, I know he says that he lives not far away and all this type of stuff and he's got pictures lined up and all that type of stuff. But just so you know mom, that doesn't mean that that's true at all. He could be some guy in another country who’s just faking all of that.
Now these people, guys and gals are in it for the long-term. They don't mind spending six months, a year, some of them will spend several years trying to dupe someone into all types of different stuff. So usually it starts off something like, I really want to come and see you, I'm so excited. Then what happens is they have some kind of an emergency. They have a work emergency, a family member's passed away. And they just can't make it. Now they're in financial trouble. Keep in mind they just spent the last six or eight months writing you love letters, sending you pictures, acknowledge you, making you feel important and worthwhile. And you've built a bond with this person, maybe talking to them every single day for six or eight months. They were going to come and see you. You were so excited. And then all of a sudden now they have this sort of emergency and could you send them maybe just 800 bucks just so they could, you know, bridge that job, blah, blah - I hear these all over the country, people write me in and there's always these common threads. And I'm like, oh.
Doug Hoyes: So it's not as simple as, I contact you on Facebook and I ask you for money.
Kelley Keehn: Exactly. Which we would all see.
Doug Hoyes: Yeah that would be pretty obvious.
Kelley Keehn: We would see that right?
Doug Hoyes: I work you and work you and work you, and we live in a different world now because of course 20 years ago there was no such thing as Facebook, so it's a new thing that we don't have the long history of how to deal with these kind of things. So - and looking at the numbers that the CAFC has produced, so that's the - what does that stand for?
Kelley Keehn: Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre.
Doug Hoyes: Which is, you know, linked in with the federal government and the RCMP and all those kind of people, romance fraud in 2016 was the top dollar loss type of fraud. So it wasn't the - there weren't as many frauds but they were bigger. They were bigger dollars. So that's a big thing.
So, okay, so what kind of advice, then, are you giving your 77-year-old mother, or anybody else who's listening, how do you avoid those specific kinds of frauds, or how do you at the very least recognize them?
Kelley Keehn: Right and it's really tough because like I said, these people are in it for the long game. The second you have not met someone, or even if you've met someone, literally the second they ask you for money, it should be bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. Those lights have got to go off to say, is this really the - you know, and Doug, it's tough, because I mean that - those heartstrings have been pulled, you know, we don't want to admit that we've been duped. This is why people don't report these types of things.
So having conversations with the people in your lives and letting - the fact that we're talking about this, thank you. That you're shedding light on this. So someone might be like, that happened to me. Exactly that. If it's - we're going to talk about some different types of scams. Any time anyone's asking you for money, demanding money, yelling at you on the phone, a text message. Any type of thing, that should be a red flag number one.
Number two, the next one is that they want it sent to them in a way that is not trackable. Right? So you know, I still - it would be a red flag if somebody asked me for money, but then if I said, yeah sure, I'll send you an email transfer, right? Because they've got to have a bank account and being Canada and etc. and they’re like no, no, no. Not that it's okay if they're asking you that, they could still be a Canadian scamming you, but generally it would be like, well, could you go and wire me some money, or someone's yelling at you and it's the grandparent scam or something like that, or the fake CRA scam, that Canada Revenue Agency is calling and demanding money, and by the way, go and get an iTunes card and they can be paid that way. Like they're getting very, very creative.
Doug Hoyes: Wow.
Kelley Keehn: And they - so that should be another one, is it's not traceable. And they do their homework. They know where there's a wire store down the block from you, or half a mile away. They know where these people live and they work hard to prey on them.
Doug Hoyes: Wow. So yeah, I walk down the street and give the cash to the money transfer place and then there's no way to track it. So. Yeah, and you're right. Anybody asking for money, boom, there you go. If you want a real simple quick thing to remember, that's it. And of course those types of scams existed 20, 30 years ago.
Kelley Keehn: Right.
Doug Hoyes: But they were a lot harder to pull off because if I have to woo that senior for six months I can't be wooing 30 others at the same time.
Kelley Keehn: Exactly.
Doug Hoyes: But now they can.
Kelley Keehn: That's a very good point.
Doug Hoyes: You're sitting at a computer.
Kelley Keehn: And keep in mind the amount of personal information that's given out, that we freely give out that these criminals can use low-cost technology to start to build a database.
So for example, if they're sending a few emails every day and that's their full-time job, that's no problem at all. So let's say that my mom's friend posts on Facebook that she's recently widowed. So she's recently widowed. She's got her birth date up there. You know that she's 78 years old. She's talking about downscaling her home, so you know she's got a few bucks, right?
Doug Hoyes: Yeah.
Kelley Keehn: She just downscaled her home so she's got some bucks.
So these fraudsters are collecting all this data. Now let's go and maybe invite my mom, she's new on Facebook, she accepts it and now they get through to her friend and they start to build a relationship with the friend.
You see how easy it is to just go and find a vulnerable person or, oh, you know, I broke up with my spouse, whatever it is, they prey on people that are vulnerable and it's really easy to get this information.
Doug Hoyes: Yeah, and I mean we just had last week on the podcast, Victoria Ryce, who wrote CEO of Everything -
Kelley Keehn: Oh yeah.
Doug Hoyes: - with Gail Vaz-Oxlade.
Kelley Keehn: Oh yeah.
Doug Hoyes: And when you're suddenly single, you're dealing with a whole bunch of stuff you've never had to deal with before, and you throw something like this on and it obviously just compounds it.
So, now you mentioned CRA.
Kelley Keehn: Right.
Doug Hoyes: Everyone loves CRA, so tell me about the CRA fraud.
Kelley Keehn: Sure.
Doug Hoyes: And I mean I hear all sorts of things about it, and I get calls from our clients all the time, that, well, Revenue Canada just phoned me and said this.
Kelley Keehn: Right.
Doug Hoyes: Okay. So how do I know if it's not really Revenue Canada and what should I be doing about it? Or what kind of frauds are being perpetrated there?
Kelley Keehn: Yeah, this was - I don't know how much it is now, but it was a really big issue last year and previous years. So this is where someone saying that they're from the Canadian Revenue Agency, they're threatening and I heard that they're horrifically mean. Like, we're literally going to come to your house or your office and arrest you right now. They were targeting new Canadians. We're going to deport you. You need to pay this amount immediately. Like, very, very threatening calls.
So I spoke with the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre and it was in fact because of them, they actually got enough information and they busted this call centre in India that CTV is actually doing a special on, I think this week. And so I don't know if it's still going on, but if it isn't it will probably be another call centre will -
Doug Hoyes: Exactly.
Kelley Keehn: - start up somewhere else.
So here's the takeaway for that. Number one, hopefully you have a professional, like an account or certified financial planner, someone like that, that you know if you owe taxes or not. Okay so that should be number one.
Number two, CRA does not call and yell at you. Now if you have a history with CRA, I don't know, but they're not going to call and yell at you. You would know that you owe taxes, number one. Even if you owe, maybe you're like, oh, I do owe. Okay. They're not going to call you and yell at you and threaten to put you in prison. You would have something in writing. But let's say it's someone calling you for your credit card, or it's someone calling you to fix your computer, the Microsoft scam. Whatever these scams or whenever someone is calling you, emailing you or texting you. If you did not initiate it, don't trust it. Do not trust it.
Hang up the phone - better yet, I mean I think anyone under 35 doesn't even have a home phone anymore. Better yet don't answer the phone. If you do answer the phone, hang up and call that place yourself. So if it was a fake - here's - let's complicate it a bit more, Doug, is there's something called caller ID spoofing. So it can actually look like it says Canada Revenue Agency. It says, your hydro company. It says the bank. It can actually say that. So maybe a trusting senior might be like, well if it's them calling - with technology they can make it anyone calling.
Doug Hoyes: Wow.
Kelley Keehn: So even if you have all the evidence there, hang up the phone, don't listen to what they're saying, call up CRA yourself. Call up your bank yourself. Don't give anything over the phone, but they just kind of give enough to be like, yeah, so your credit card was compromised, or we're going to talk about phishing right away because those emails are getting better. But yeah.
Doug Hoyes: So the key takeaway is hang up and call back.
Kelley Keehn: Hang up and call yourself, go on the internet.
Doug Hoyes: Find the real number.
Kelley Keehn: Find the real number.
Doug Hoyes: Don't hit redial.
Kelley Keehn: Exactly.
Doug Hoyes: No, and you're right. All of my clients know when anyone from my office calls them, the call display says Hoyes.com.
Kelley Keehn: Right. Sure.
Doug Hoyes: Because there's only a limited number of digits and when we first started it said, Hoyes and Ass because that's all that would fit in, and I thought it was hilarious, but the rest of the company didn't. So we actually were able to program it to say Hoyes.com. Well if we can do that, obviously anyone else can as well.
Kelley Keehn: Very good point.
Doug Hoyes: And as a result you don't know if the person on the other end is who they say they are.
So you talked about phishing, which is not spelled with an F, it's spelled with a PH.
Kelley Keehn: That's right.
Doug Hoyes: Phishing.
Kelley Keehn: Yeah.
Doug Hoyes: What are you talking about? What's phishing? Explain that.
Kelley Keehn: So that is trying to get you to click on something, reply to something, get your information to scam you via email or text message. Okay?
So, what that could be is a - it looks like, let's say, somebody sent you an email Interac transfer. It looks like your bank. I get this one - I get this one often on a Friday, Doug. It will say, your account has been frozen and if you don't click on this link right now, it's going to be suspended and it's going to be shut down. Well if that's Friday at 4 o'clock I could see somebody, like, geeze, I don't want my account shut down all weekend long. Click.
Your bank is never, ever going to email you and ask for any kind of information like that. What the spammers are doing is they're just hoping that, number one, they catch you distracted, and number two they just catch you coincidentally like you - I don't want to name any companies but let's just name - let's just say you just set up an Amazon account. You just set up a PayPal account. You just started with XYZ bank, and then boom, this email comes in. You're like, oh. Not thinking right. Click.
So what happens when you click? When you click it could be various things. So they could be taking you to a site that - then they're getting you to log in and now they have your login information all type of that. So it could be, like, a fake site. You could click on it and now it's installed malware into your computer, so that is malicious software that you don't even know. It's, like, running behind there. You won't even realize you did it. And it, now, is watching every keystroke that you make. So now whenever you go and bank online, now whenever you go and check your investment account, the fraudsters can see all that activity.
So you have to be so careful. And then - do you remember the JP Morgan breach? The largest US breach?
Doug Hoyes: Yeah.
Kelley Keehn: And they were, like, oh, they didn't get the account numbers or anything like that, they just got names, emails stuff like that. Like, no biggie. They didn't actually penetrate our system. So people were like, that's cool. They never intended on that. All they intended on was to wait till kind of things died down for a couple of months and then go after all of those JP - say, your account has been breached. We need you to change your password. It was always a phishing scam and then to try to get people and to scam them that way.
So you have to be really, really, really, really careful when you're clicking on anything.
Doug Hoyes: Yeah, because if I wanted to scam you, I don't need to know everything, I just need to know some stuff.
Kelley Keehn: Here's another one. Here's another one. Very good point. Companies - fraudsters are using this to also extort from companies and get trade secrets and all types of different things.
So let's say you are the coach for your daughter's volleyball team. I don't know, making it up, right? And you've got that on LinkedIn. You've got this great LinkedIn profile. You're like, yeah, you know, other interests, I coach this volleyball team.
So then I go on your Facebook profile, which you have not set, let's say, your privacy settings, and I see that your daughter's name is Lesley. So then I send you a little email saying here's some pictures from Lesley's volleyball, you know, tournament or whatever. And you're like, oh. Lesley - right? I coach volleyball. It's Lesley, whatever, click. Now they're in your computer. Now they're whatever. And maybe you're on a work computer and I'm not that kind of a technical expert so I have no idea what they can do. But they can do a lot of stuff.
Doug Hoyes: They're getting into the network.
Kelley Keehn: They're getting in. Exactly. So.
Doug Hoyes: Well, and a lot of that can be coincidence because in this country there are, what? Like five banks?
Kelley Keehn: Right.
Doug Hoyes: So, this week I send you an email saying, hey, I know you've just opened your CIBC account.
Kelley Keehn: Exactly.
Doug Hoyes: And then, well you didn't. So you just ignore it. And then next week I send you about TD, and the next week about RBC.
Kelley Keehn: Exactly.
Doug Hoyes: And then on the fourth week, when I hit the Scotia Bank one, that's the one you did - oh, this must be legit then.
Kelley Keehn: Yes. So true.
Doug Hoyes: Because I'm just - I'm just throwing it out there. And if I'm a spammer or a scammer, I send a thousand emails, all I know is one or two hits.
Kelley Keehn: That's it. That's it.
Doug Hoyes: It's not that hard to do. So wow.
Kelley Keehn: And the takeaway there is, I mean we're talking about this and some people will be like, oh, that's so common sense and how could somebody be so stupid. It's really easy, like we all get a lot of email now. Everyone's signed up to all kinds of different stuff. And just like you said, oh, I would notice that because I don't bank with that. But you just signed up for this obscure something or whatever and then you get, you just happened to get that spam that week and you click on it.
Doug Hoyes: We look at everything on our phones now, not on a computer. So the screen is smaller.
Kelley Keehn: True.
Doug Hoyes: I don't see as much content. I'm much more likely to be clicking something -
Kelley Keehn: Very good point.
Doug Hoyes: - that maybe I shouldn't have. So.
Okay. Well let's - we're bumping up against the clock here. So let's pick two more scams to talk about.
Kelley Keehn: Sure.
Doug Hoyes: Because if we had four hours we could just keep going from there.
I'll throw out a bunch and you tell me which one you want to jump on.
Kelley Keehn: Okay.
Doug Hoyes: You want to talk extortion, prize scams, emergencies, lower interest scams, job scams, loan scams. Which one of those strikes your fancy - I guess the ones to do with money then.
Kelley Keehn: Yeah.
Doug Hoyes: So you know, a lower interest scam. What are we talking about there? Where someone is saying, oh, you qualify for some better deal. Is it as simple as that?
Kelley Keehn: Yeah. So it's really just them calling trying to phish for your credit card information, things of that sort, and seeing how much they can get by you - by you giving that away.
But when you're asking which one is kind of top of my list, Doug, I think it would be investment scams and here's why.
Anyone in Canada right now can - other than the province of Quebec - can still call themselves a financial planner. They can hang out their shingle to say that they're a financial planner. And that is absolutely wrong. I'm also the consumer advocate for the Financial Planning Standards Council because I am not a certified financial planner, but I think if someone is going to invest their money they should at minimum look for that designation.
Doug Hoyes: And that's CFP we're talking about?
Kelley Keehn: Yes. CFP. And they have a great consumer site called Financial Planning for Canadians.ca. they have over 80 articles up there. And they have a Findyourplanner.ca tool where you can find a CFP across Canada. I like the consumer site because they have lots of articles too. Things to ask a financial planner, red flags that it's a scam. I was saying earlier at the top of the show I'm from Alberta and there's just so many of these land deals.
They're so - even when I'm on BNN, I'll say look, I still am worried about that group, or that audience because that audience might be very astute when it comes to quote unquote investing, but the fraudsters know that that group, for exactly, are DIYers. Right? They're doing it themselves. They don't have maybe that professional on their side, like a lawyer an accountant or a CFP. And they're more easily preyed upon because they don't know the red flags. And these are not scary, horrible people. They're people you golf with. This is maybe somebody at your PTA. Someone you go to church or synagogue with. This is some lovely, nice person that has this great investment for you. And -
Doug Hoyes: You're describing Bernie Madoff.
Kelley Keehn: Totally. Right? And all of these people are charismatic. Like they really - you watch any of these shows or do any of the research and everyone's like, they were the nicest person. One of the largest ones in southern Alberta was all perpetrated by the Harvest Group of Funds by pastors. They were all pastors.
So just because someone looks nice or you know them or you know of them, you need to do your due diligence. Like people will do so much work to negotiate maybe a mortgage rate or this that or the other thing. But they'll borrow $150,000 on their home and hand it over to a fraudsters and they didn't even do a Google search to see, or call - you know, your Ontario Securities Commission, they have a website called Checkfirst.ca. and that's, like, the best thing that you can do. Unfortunately it's very fragmented to try to find out if someone's legit or not. Sometimes you go to the provincial. Sometimes you to go the - some federal stuff.
But do your homework. Don't just hand over those dollars. Because if someone's done everything, like you said, that's sometimes the reason that people are in front of you. They had great jobs, they saved their money, they didn't get into credit problems, whatever, but at the wrong time they handed their money over to a fraudster and now they're -
Doug Hoyes: Boom. Then they got a problem.
So wow. Well we covered a massive amount of ground here, and what I'm going to do is put a whole bunch of links in the show notes. I've been jotting down notes that you've given me, and we've got a whole bunch more related to Fraud Prevention Week that we can give people. So that will be over at Hoyes.com.
So closing comments then, and I've kind of - if I can read my writing from what you've said here, warning signs are things like people asking for money and asking for it in a non-traceable manner. And really - you know, think. This is really what it all comes down to.
Kelley Keehn: Yeah.
Doug Hoyes: If it sounds too good to be true it probably is.
Kelley Keehn: And slow down.
Doug Hoyes: Slow down.
Kelley Keehn: Slow down. Like you said, the phone screen is small. Slow down. You know, don't reply right away. Do it when you get home. Like you said, look on the bigger screen. Just slow - your kid's soccer club is asking for their social insurance number. Why?
Doug Hoyes: Why? What's the deal on that?
Kelley Keehn: Why are you asking that? You know. Just be more - careful because you know, we're talking about all these scams, but at the end of the day if you are a victim of these thefts or identity theft, you're on the hook for it, not anyone else.
Doug Hoyes: Well I think that's a great concluding comment. Slow down. And that probably is pretty good advice for every area of life too.
Kelley Keehn: I know. So true.
Doug Hoyes: You don't have to jump into it. So.
Well that's great, Kelley, thanks very much for being here today.
Kelley Keehn: Thank you Doug.
Doug Hoyes: Very much appreciate it. That was Kelley Keehn giving us lots of practical advice on how to be aware of and avoid being defrauded.
That's our show for today. Full show notes including a full transcript and links to Kelley's first appearance on this show and links to her book on Protecting Yourself From Identity Theft and Fraud. And lots of other resources can be found at Hoyes.com. That's h-o-y-e-s-dot-com.
And the final point. If you know a senior or someone else who could be at risk of being defrauded, this would probably be a good episode and the show notes of the podcast to share with them.
So thanks for listening. Until next week, I'm Doug Hoyes. That was Debt Free in 30.